Helen Mirren on date rape
3/9/08 21:37
3/9/08 20:54
nooo of course not
I gave an example of where I went on a very calm and non drunken hen night with my own sister, where we had no hen night stuff on display, and were suitably dressed (no teeny outfits!) and behaved in London and were basically treated like meat. We were touched, pushed, shoved and followed around - without hardly even being spoken to and it disgusted me. As if all women out on a night are after a jolly. In my local town men actually talk to you properly and are generally friendly apart from maybe the odd weirdo or 2. We then tried to walk down the street and the same thing happened! It really shocked me. I also read something about how there are an awful lot of men in therapy because they find they can only become aroused by pornography and have a very warped view of women. They can't form relationships properly because they are so dependent on pornography and the images have blurred the lines of reality
3/9/08 20:48
ooh Mrshalifx, you surprise me, i was expecting to be spat on! Thank you. xx
3/9/08 20:35
Tricia I entirely agree with you and made the same point the last time there was this very debate. There is something very wrong and has gone awry with the way that men view women
There are indeed men nowadays who are completely unable to define between the fantasty sexualisation of women and the reality, in fact its confusing for them. I believe this is a problem they could seek help for if they realised its a problem, instead of them only receiving help once they have assaulted someone or had feelings to. I know that there are a lot of other issues surrounding why men assault women sexually but I agree that there is a grey area with the issue of consent. A woman has to say no, and make it clear indeed a man is not a mind reader, but equally he needs to take full responsibilty if he is having sex with a woman who is possibly too intoxicated to even give consent. The next day he can hardly defend himself if she was incabable of giving the consent if he still continued to have sex, why someone would want to do that is beyond me (have sex with someone virtually unconcious and unresponsive) which is what often happens in the case of women who are drugged and spiked. They have little or vague memory and it makes it hard for them to make an allegation
3/9/08 20:16
I find it disgusting that the Sun felt the need to use a photo to illustrate the point. Tacky and nasty imo.
Ok prepared to be shot! While i agree, rape is rape, a woman as the right to change her mind at any point, of course it doesn't matter how naked and how far you've already gone. I do believe that there is a grey area with rape. I believe that there are situations where the woman feels that she has been raped and the man feels that he did not rape her, that to me is a grey area.
I think that sadly more and more exposure to graphic and degrading sexual images/ films/stories and increasingly negative portrayals of woman give men a false idea of women and sex. Clearly the large, huge majority of rape cases will be just that, rape. But i do believe there are situations that can be for want of a better word, tricky.
Now I'm rubbish at finding link but months ago i read dh's fhm and there was an article by grub smith called something like 'why i hate porn' definitely worth a read if anyone can find it. It refers to a situation where he states that he feels that porn had given him a different view of women and where he felt that he nearly raped a woman.
Let me just make it clear that I am not under any circumstances trying to say 'poor men, they can't help it' I'm just saying that I believe there to be an extreme minority of cases that would be tricky.
*off to hide from the pitchforks*
3/9/08 18:55
I'm not touching this with a barge pole.
3/9/08 18:17
The woman clearly felt she was not getting enough attention these days!
I did read that she also said it happened to her a couple of times so maybe she feels guilty for not reporting it herself so is trying to somehow justify that by trying to convince herself its not that much of a crime (insane)
Rape is rape, I hate the term DATE RAPE as its almost like they are trying to down play it! It is no less a crime if you know the person who does it to you for gods sake!
I think the ex junkie who is famous for stripping off in films in the past needs to think about the effect of what she says, especially when there is already a huge problem with persuading women to report these crimes!
2/9/08 20:59
The main concerns that i have about rape and 'date rape' in particular are the people who think its a good idea to accuse someone of rape for malicious reasons or because they regret having sex with them.
Accusations like those can ruin someones life and make it more difficult for genuine cases to be believed. The police should come down much harder on the time wasters.
2/9/08 20:48
that's an excellent analogy, mrs hallifax. you'd be considered an a*** if you carried on driving. it might even be illegal, perhaps kidnapping or something similar.
the debate of a couple of weeks centered around the issue of putting yourself more at risk of it, and to what extent a person is guilty of that, but that is another issue again. it sounds as if ms mirren is calling the act itself a grey area (i saw a bbc news report on it) in which case i have to disagree.
always hard to know if someone is being quoted out of context but they are not allowed to completely misquote her either.
having said all this it is refreshing, for want of a better word., to hear a celeb speak their mind, even of it is controversial, down right wrong, or un pc, it is their opinion and i'd rather read their honest opinion than have a party line puked out to me from their pr
2/9/08 20:12
I agree with BW... she has put it perfectly. Even if you are consenting to penetration you can change your mind, and for someone to not allow you to change your mind - whether that is deemed as 'fair' what is unfair about changing your mind about something you have chosen not to do? Even with my BF now I have started and then changed my mind as I haven't felt well or just soooo tired and of course he just says 'ok then' and we cuddle... There is never any situation where it would be acceptable even if you had a naked lady in your bed if she changes her mind, then you can't just carry on anyway. Can you? Much simpler but if someone got into your car, and asked you to stop it, would you carry on driving?
2/9/08 20:08
I dont see why it matters what happened prior to the rape there is no grey area imo rape is rape no matter what the circumstances.
2/9/08 20:07
Unfortunately The Sun is hardly known for it's fair unbiased reporting, and what I've read there doesn't completely match what I heard on the radio. The way they interpretted the interview was that maybe she's suggesting that in the same way that there are different grades of murder (certainly in the States) that there should be different grades of rape, which could then take into account what had been going on prior to the 'rape', i.e., whether the woman had been a willing participant in some sexual activity immediately preceeding it.
2/9/08 19:54
It's not even that she's naked its that if she's engaged in other sexual acts consensually i can sort of see how there can be a grey area.
2/9/08 19:52
Even if you have taken your clothes off there is no excuse for rape its like saying men are unable to control themselves if a women is naked that shouldnt be the case.
2/9/08 19:51
That was more aimed at Helen Mirren than anyone, by the way...
2/9/08 19:51
Whether it seems fair or not, if a woman changes her mind at the point of penetration, she can say no. If the man carries on, he is a rapist. There is no grey area with rape.
If a woman lies about giving consent, that is another matter.
2/9/08 19:02
Have to say she has a point that could be argued in so far as to say if you've gone home with a guy, you've voluntarily stripped off and voluntarily engaged in other sexual acts can you expect a man to be guilty of rape when you've been party to all that?
A fair percentage of 'date rape' cases are dismissed because it's simply a case of the woman is embarassed by her behaviour the previous night.
BTW i dont actually know where i stand on this but i can sort of see where she's coming from.
2/9/08 18:51
That is shocking
2/9/08 18:50
i just read it an hour ago, i didnt know what to think, all i want to say is any kind of rape is wrong no matter what the circumstances
2/9/08 18:46
Showing page:
Rape is rape - if he forces himself on you no matter what you have been getting up to before hand or if you say no and he carries on then that is wrong too...
It is not rape if the next day you wish you hadnt done it but didnt say anything at the time.
I think there is a grey area with rape and it is when 2 people are both drunk and the next day the girl (or boy) cant remember what happened but know they had sex... a bloke should not have sex with a woman if she is too inebriated to give consent but what if they are both drunk as skunks?